[CS-FSLUG] PD: Re: Christians taking action...

Jim Isbell, W5JAI jim.isbell at gmail.com
Sat Aug 19 18:32:28 CDT 2006

As long as there is SOME government there can never be a truly free
market in the Libertarian sense, that is true.  But the markets in the
Democratic countries of the world are closer to it than anywhere else
in the world.  Unless you look for countries with no government to
speak of...like an open air market in the bush of Africa where the
government (tribal leadership) provides no services and takes no
taxes, i.e. no government.

On 8/19/06, Timothy Butler <tbutler at ofb.biz> wrote:
> > I know several WM employees and they are quite happy with their jobs.
>         They may indeed be quite happy (though I think many seem not to be),
> but like I said, many of them would not meet the standards of most
> other companies. I guess you can look at it different ways: is Wal-
> Mart causing the employees to be demotivated or are the only types of
> people that will work at Wal-Mart those who only provide Wal-Mart
> quality work?
> > Competition is what a free market place is all about.
> >
> > Democracy needs a free market place or it becomes dictatorship.
>         Hardly true, unless you are prepared to say we don't have a
> democracy (well, actually, that would be a good thing to be prepared
> to say, since we don't have a democracy, we have a republic, but I
> digress). We do not have a free market place. We have patents,
> allowed monopolies, state provided services, etc. Like I said, the
> state provides Medicaid to cover the poorest folks in the state. If
> that didn't exist, many that can tolerate working at Wal-Mart
> probably would not, because they wouldn't get health coverage. We
> have created an externality where people are demotivated to demand
> better wages because the state provides for the need (even if it does
> so poorly). Hence, we must internalize the externality or admit -- at
> the least -- that we do not have a free market in operation.
>         In other words. Let's say that most people "need" a wage of at least
> $7.00/hr plus benefits. If the state provided no health coverage and
> hospitals turned away those who had no coverage, people would not
> work for less than the combined total of $7.00/hr plus benefits
> (let's say that totals $10/hr.). Now, if the state provides benefits
> for people below the poverty line, then people will work for $3 or
> more under what they would work for in a free market. So, while a
> store that treats its employees very well and provides a complete
> compensation package might pay $10/hr., Wal-Mart can pay $7/hr. and
> get approximately the same quality of help. This is what we call an
> externality, because Wal-Mart is able to redirect the cost to tax
> payers, but do so in such as way that people do not realize they are
> essentially paying a "Wal-Mart tax."
>         This in addition to the aforementioned destruction of competition
> (because of Wal-Mart's oligopolic market position), almost exclusive
> purchasing from the worst of countries concerning human rights (and
> often sweatshop investigations have been tied to Wal-Mart's brands),
> etc., etc. And people shop there, despite alternatives that offer
> better quality products in a nicer environment because they can save,
> what, fifty cents? Now, I don't know as far as human rights
> violations, but at least from a customer standpoint, Target is much
> more pleasant than Wal-Mart, IMO.
> > Union breakers have to first have a union and so far no union.
>         Call them what you will, Wal-Mart has pulled out all the stops to
> prevent unions whenever a union tries to form. This is well documented.
> > Unions are socialistic in concept to begin with.  No offence, if that
> > is what you want, but it didnt seem to work in the biggest such
> > experiment so far.
>         On the contrary, I'm a proponent of largely laissez-faire economics
> with a touch of pragmatism in the mix. The U.S. market is not free,
> so we ought not expect it to behave as if it was.
>         -Tim
> ---
> Timothy R. Butler | "Bad is so bad, that we cannot but think good
> Editor, OfB.biz   | an accident;  good is so  good, that  we feel
> tbutler at ofb.biz   | certain that evil could be explained."
> timothybutler.us  |                           -- G. K. Chesterton
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Jim Isbell
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."

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