[CS-FSLUG] God Didn't Say That

[Aaron Lehmann]

On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 03:24:43AM -0500, Don Parris wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-01-07 at 02:25 -0500, Aaron Lehmann wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 03:39:56PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
> > > >
> > > >To me and perhaps the larger majority of Christians "The Bible teaches 
> > > >us to
> > > >love God and neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), and to allow
> > > >the Holy Spirit to develop within us the qualities of love, joy, peace,
> > > >patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and 
> > > >self-control
> > > >(Galatians 5:22-23).
> > > 
> > > 	There is a difference between loving someone and trying to make the 
> > > case that a given behavior is good, honorable, lovely, etc. (Phil. 4:8) 
> > > "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are profitable. 
> > > 'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things build up" (1 Cor. 
> > > 10:23).
> > > 
> > > >When children, youth and adults embody these values, regardless of 
> > > >sexual
> > > >orientation, we are growing into the whole people God hopes we will 
> > > >become.
> > > >You or I may hyperfocus on a person's sexual orientation, but God 
> > > >loves the
> > > >sum of all of our parts."
> > > 
> > > 	To an extent I agree. I've gone on the record saying that we ought 
> > > 	to love homosexuals, that we ought to reach out to them, etc. BUT, I say 
> > > this because we should reach out to all sinners. I'm a sinner as well. 
> > > At the same time, WE SHOULD NOT attempt to distort the Bible to argue 
> > > that what they are doing is not sin. What we should do, is lovingly 
> > > help them show the fruits of the Spirit and escape sin... just like I 
> > > hope others do for me.
> > 
> > But, are we to demand that they be free of their sin before welcoming
> > them?  Many homosexuals feel that they are shunned by Christendom, and
> > by extension God, because of what they feel they are unable to cope
> > with.  Is there some way to say, "At some point this must be worked on,
> > but when that point comes, you will realize it is workable."?  After
> > all, Christ did not come to save the righteous, but the sinners.  If
> > there is a way, what is the proper way to do it?
> > 
> You raise an interesting point.  There really are two questions:
> (1) Is homosexuality a moral wrong, a cultural more, or a genetic fact?
> (2) How doe we treat homosexuals, generally (esp. in light of the answer
> to #1)?
> 
> The answer to #1 is, based on my understanding of Biblical
> interpretation, that homosexuality is a moral wrong.  Science has not
> proven beyond the shadow of a doubt (at least not to me) that
> homosexuality is a genetic trait.  If the Church fathers (Paul, etc) had
> seen homosexuality as a cultural issue, they might not have addressed it
> at all.  However, the behavior is consistently part of the sin lists in
> the N.T.  

It seems to me they also believed it to be a curse that came from God
because of unrighteousness (I don't rememebr the verse, but I'm pretty
sure it's Pauline).  Is it not possible to be born homosexual in
orientation?  It would still be a sin, but it would also be much more
difficult to overcome I imagine, and would feel natural to the person.

> 
> Interestingly, the reference to keeping the women quiet in worship was
> not in the sin lists.  Thus one is definitely a moral issue, while the
> other could be (arguably) taken as cultural.  I'm not trying to open
> another discussion, but merely pointing to the difference between moral
> & cultural issues, from the standpoint of good biblical interpretation.

Indeed.

> 
> Frankly, there are quite a few sincere Christians who still lie, cheat,
> and commit other sins.  All of us have to mature in our spiritual
> journey - I don't believe change just happens overnight - certainly not
> in many of the situations I've experienced.  There could even be
> occasions where a redeemed homosexual falls into temptation, thanks to
> the old fleshly nature.
> 
> I have always struggled with how to address this adequately.  I have
> felt that, at times the Church is too stern toward this issue, and yet
> ordaining practicing homosexual clergy is _not_ the answer.  You
> wouldn't ordain a practicing liar, would you?  Or a practicing murderer?
> I can't imagine that many of us would entertain the idea of ordaining a
> redeemed murderer today - even though that is quite clearly what Paul
> had been as Saul.

Did you believe by "welcoming" I meant "ordaining?"  I did not.  I have
heard, from many different people that practising homosexuals can't be
Christian.  Either this is right, or it is not.

If it is right, then many people in churches are not Christian, for they
do not tithe, and thus steal money from God.  They are practicing
theives.  Similar examples could probably be shown for other sins.  Many
of these people will not admit it's a sin currently, but may come to
repentance later.  Should they be made to feel hated by the Church?  No.
Should they be made deacons?  No.

If it is wrong, then the Church has done an excellent job hiding the
fact.

> 
> Personally speaking, I can accept that redeemed homosexuals will
> struggle, especially in the beginning.  It will be up to a loving
> congregation to admonish & restore (gently, as suggested by Galatians)
> such persons when we discover their failure.  We do need to ensure that
> people understand we are not condoning such behavior in any way, shape,
> form or fashion.  We need to ensure that people understand that an
> unrepentant person has a serious spiritual malady.  However, they also
> need to know that they, personally, are accepted, loved (agape, philios
> - not eros).
> 
> I also think the church has communicated poorly with respect to this
> issue.  We've apparently gotten the message across that homosexuality is
> sin.  We apparently have failed - regardless of how we, as individuals
> may approach it - to communicate the acceptance in forgiveness.  Perhaps
> our attitudes express our expectation that a homosexual must demonstrate
> immediate change before they will be accepted as Christian.  

They definitely demonstrate that.  They say, "All other sins will be
tolerated but not accepted, homosexuality will not be tolerated, but
stoned."  Whatever our words might say, this is our attitude.  There are
many words that are hateful and derrogatory towards groups of people.
I'm sure that you can think of them, and if I were to use them
habitually to refer to the groups when they came up, I would be
corrected by someone on the list.  Why is there no correction when this
same hate is directed at homosexuals?  Yes, these people are enganging
in filthy, immoral behavior.  Yes, these are PEOPLE engaging in filthy,
abberant behavior.

Jesus said we would be cursed for his sake.  But I wonder if maybe we
aren't being cursed in this case because we deserve it.  C.S. Lewis never
spoke against gambling.  The reason he gave was because he had never
experienced a temptation to gamble.  This may be a good example, since
there are worthy ministries aimed at the homosexual community, as
indicated elsewhere in this thread.

Aaron Lehmann