[PD/TD] Re: [CS-FSLUG] Activist Republican Judge Says CA Marriage Law Unconstitutional

[Brian Derr]

Wow, I opened a big can of worms and haven't been able to pipe in until
now.  I'm glad to see a discussion about this as I've been working
through the issue in my head for a while now and want to hear ideas from
my brothers and sisters.  Thank you for indulging me everyone.  On to
the topic at hand!

In regard to Alvin:
>> Rather than wasting our time making laws that drive the lost away 
>> from the Word lets befriend them and show them the love of Jesus.  
>> After all it is what Jesus would have done.

> Really?  Based on what scripture?  

> It is after all the moral law of the 10 commandments that shows a man
> that he is in sin.  Without that law how would a man know that he is a
> sinner?  What would be the point of "showing the love of Jesus" to 
> someone who does not need a Saviour in their mind?  

> Whether a nation's government passes moral laws is immaterial to the 
> believer.  He still has to show a sinner that sin is very sinful by 
> showing him the Law of a Holy God in order for him to see the true 
> love and sacrifice of Christ. 

> Otherwise there is no repentance, and no conversion.

I have no scripture that directly addresses the issue at hand.  I wish
I do because I like to be sure and stay on course with the Bible.  That
being said I think you are referring to Spiritual law over civil law. 
We all fall under both scenarios but only a certain percentage of the
populace follows both.

I follow the spiritual law of God and I also follow the civil law of my
country.  The law of God says that lying, cheating, covetousness,
homosexuality, etc are wrong.  I try not to do these things because it
is against the law.  That being said the average citizen of any country
that does not believe in God, let alone His law, is not holding himself
to the same standard.  Why not lie to get ahead at work?

We as followers of Christ have to understand that the average person
does not hold themselves to our standard of living.  We cannot judge or
condemn them for it; they need a Saviour.  My job on this earth is to
bring people to Jesus and His laws not through congressional acts or
judicial might, but through the love of Jesus.  Once they recognize
that the greatest man to ever lived died for them because He loves them
so much and it hurts Him when they behave the way they do they'll
understand sin and their need for a Saviour in Jesus Christ.  Until
then we are just wasting our time telling folks they have to live to
our standards and not.

> We are either for God or against Him.  We have to open up our mouths
> and speak the Word of God, show compassion for the lost, and represent
> Jesus to the World.  

> There is no grey area. 

Alvin I agree with your totally!  (Sorry Aaron, there is no grey area.)
I am for God completely but there are those that choose not to be.  I
cannot force them to live by a moral standard that I have chosen to live
by.  I completely agree that the church dropped the ball.  The church
should have had a much more active role in the forming of America than
it did and we have no one to blame but the church for that.  This isn't
the point though.  There still were and are immoral people that do not
follow our beliefs and to take away their freedom of choice is not
within our power.

Bob: I know how you feel.  It isn't right that we are tossed aside
immediately because of our beliefs.  Jesus himself told us we would be
persecuted for His namesake.  I don't agree with what they do but I
cannot blame them for it.  You're absolutely right: faith is no more
unsound than logic.  But to these people that have no reason for living
that is what makes them feel good.  I can't explain it...sorry.

Leon: You are correct.  Marriage is a spiritual covenant between a man,
woman and God.  The state technically has no business in the marriage
business, heterosexual or not.

Kathy: Also agree with you that heterosexual couples raising children is
how it is supposed to be.  God fearing couples raise productive and
kindhearted citizens of both earth and Heaven.  I also believe we are to
support normal marriage as a foundation of our society.  I personally
cannot begin to think what life would be like with two married men or
women but it is going to be a reality whether we like it or not.  Maybe
not now or two years from now but it will be.  Our focus should be on
winning souls for Jesus and not on creating a moral society from civil
law.

Fred:  There is a difference between "approving of queer marriage" and
finding laws making such marriage illegal based on our form of
government.  I do not approve of homosexual marriage at all but I also
do not approve of the government telling me I cannot if it is what I
want to do.  I'm not hurting anyone right?  (You are hurting society as
a whole even though you do not realize it Mr. Relativist.)  Lets drop
the murder, rape, etc arguments because they really don't pertain to
this decision.  My marrying another man is not going to in any way
deprive you of your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,
which happens to be the American doctrine.

To sum things up I find homosexual marriage to be wrong according to the
spiritual law of God.  I cannot, however, in good conscience hold a
person accountable to the law of God unless they believe in said law.  I
do not believe in the laws of Saudi Arabia and would not expect to be
held accountable to their punishments living here in the United States.
Why is it different when it becomes an eternity issue?  They are not
members of the eternal heaven of God and His laws so why are we, as
humans, trying to obtain the right to hold them responsible to said law
through something as stupid as civil government?

We need to approach sin on a personal level and not a broad stroked
congressional action.  Friendship with a person is the only way to bring
them to the realization that Jesus and His law are the only way to live.
Folks, we need to reach these lost people through friendship.  Have we
learned nothing from Jesus himself?  Who did He argue with?  The
religious leaders, not sinners.  He forgave sinners and sent them on
their way.  He was not so kind to our religious forefathers.  He
condemned them for their hypocrisy.  I do not know about you but I don't
want to follow in the footsteps of the Pharisees.  I want to follow
Jesus and not get bogged down in the law: the civil law!  Only the law
of God matters.

I'm really sorry for this extremely long monologue.  If you have
something constructive to say for or against what I have to say I am
more than happy to hear it.  If, on the other hand, all you have to say
is something deriding or holier-than-thou please spare me and the rest
of the group as it gets tiring.

-- 
Brian

The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after
him.  -- Proverbs 20:7