[CS-FSLUG] Luke 22:36 - 22:38

[Aaron Lehmann]

Thanks for the facts, James.  They're quite interesting.

Aaron Lehmann

On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 02:10:55PM -0500, James Thompson wrote:
> Some facts:
> 
> + Luke and Ephesians by conservative estimations were authored around
> the same time, 60-63 AD, although Ephesians is considered on of the
> Prison Epistles which seperates Paul from Luke enough to disparage any
> mixing of metaphors between the two.
> 
> + The actual events recorded by Luke probably came from other sources
> who witnessed them and thus would probably not be subject to any
> Pauline metaphors.
> 
> + The "Bible" was not possible as a single volume until into the 2nd
> century most likely due to the invention of the Codex form sometime
> near the end of the 1st or beginning of the 2nd century.
> 
> + The Canon of the Old Testament wasn't fixed until the Council of
> Jamnia, 90 AD, some 30 years after Ephesians and Luke would have been
> written.
> 
> + The canon of the New Testament wasn't fixed until well into the 2nd century.
> 
> + It was only normal for the wealthy, synagogues and places of
> learning to have copies of the scripture and very few ever had what
> could be considered a complete collection. So most folks memorized
> scripture since they couldn't have their own copies.
> 
> Because of these and other factors it is unlikely that the metaphor
> interpretation is accurate. Especially if you read verse 38 as a
> rebuke it is almost impossible to hold to that interpreation. Also,
> why would Jesus use metaphorical language in the midst of instructions
> he would probably want to be clearly understood. And would those who
> read the Gospels without the enlightenment of Ephesians have been able
> to arrive at that interpretation, unlikely. For these reasons a
> literal reading seems most appropriate.
> 
> The former poster may be on to something in regards to defense v.
> revolution although I would want to study the greek as well as the
> historical setting some more. I find it highly unlikely that the
> metaphor interpretation is even a remote possiblity though, except
> with those pushing a extra-Biblical pacifist perspective.
> 
> 
> -- 
> James W. Thompson, II (New Orleans, LA)
> 
> RESPONDING TO:
> On 7/13/05, Aaron Lehmann <lehmanap at lehmanap.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > I'd like some reasons for these beliefs.  I've no particular stance one
> > way or another as yet, but it seems like a bit of a jump to assume that
> > the word as a sword metaphor was already in use.  After all, Jesus spoke
> > cryptically to the masses, but he explained things to the twelve.  Why
> > would he be catty and use an unexplained metaphor, when it would be just
> > as easy to be straightforward about things?  It seems more likely that
> > he wanted to be sure they had enough swords to defend themselves, if
> > they were attacked, but not enough to start a revolution.
> > 
> > Also, I was under the impression that Biblical cannon was not very well
> > established yet.  Different scripts were holy in different places, so
> > you couldn't just say "make sure you have a Bible," as what was holy
> > writ varied, and wasn't collected and available to everyone as what was
> > holy writ varied, and wasn't collected and available to everyone.  On
> > the other hand, I doubt it was much better collected by the time Paul
> > talked about the Sword of the Spirit.
> > 
> > I guess my basic problem with this view of things is that it assumes
> > that Jesus must have been using the word -> sword metaphor, just because
> > Paul used it later.  But Jesus, oddly enough, tends to extend on
> > metaphors used before him, not after him.  If he were being
> > metaphorical, it seem more likely that he would tell them to sell their
> > cloak to buy bread (i.e. the bread of life).
> > 
> > Aaron Lehmann
> > 
> > On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:17:08AM -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:
> > > The respons I rec'd is:
> > >
> > > The passage with TWO swords is in 22:38. Jesus' response is not an
> > > approval--"It is enough" has the meaning of "Enough of this." The sword
> > > referred to in 22:36 is not a physical sword--see Eph 6:17.
> > >
> > > --
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> > > our software, Never! We do have undocumented added
> > > features, that you will find amusing, at no added cost
> > > to you, at this time.
> > >
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