On 6/14/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Don Parris</b> <<a href="mailto:parrisdc@gmail.com">parrisdc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><span class="q">On 6/14/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">dmc</b> <<a href="mailto:edoc7@verizon.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">edoc7@verizon.net</a>> wrote:</span></div>
<div><div></div><div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">The problem with much of the emergent church
<br>"mixed theology" is that some of it is badly
<br>"mixed up" with extra-Biblical sources.<br><br><snip><br><br></blockquote></span></div><div><div>I do hope to be accused of the same! I do not rely too much on extra-Biblical sources. While I definitely use study aids in my preparation, I am afraid I don't accept non-Cannonical materials as a primary source for my growth. I might read the Gospel of Thomas, to know what it says or something. I just couldn't cannonize it.
<br><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br><i></i>St. Paul taught us:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-style: italic;">So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
</span>(2 Thess. 2:15)<br style="font-style: italic;"></div><br><br>It seems, to me at least, that Bible-believing Christians must hold at least one extra-Biblical <a href="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html">
Tradition</a> (a "Church tradition" no less) at the center of their faith: the "table of contents" of the Holy Bible.<br><br>How did the early Christians, particularly their more vocal and well-known teachers-leaders feel about the subject of "church tradition?"
<br><br>;-)<br><br>Well, let's see ...<br><br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">"Follow the bishop, all of you, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the
presbyterium as the Apostles. As for the deacons, respect them as the Law of
God. Let no one do anything with reference to the Church without the bishop.
Only that Eucharist may be regarded as legitimate which is celebrated with the
bishop or his delegate presiding. Where the bishop is, there let the community
be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." <em>Ignatius of
Antioch, Epistle to the Symyrnaens 8 (c. A.D. 110).</em><br><br><br><br>
"Through none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those
through whom the gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God
delivering to us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of
our faith...But when, the heretics are confuted by the Scriptures, they turn round
and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of
authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be
extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition...And when we challenge them in
turn [with] that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the
succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition,
saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the
Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the
whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it
is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will
confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and
universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most
glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith
which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles." <em>Irenaeus, Against Heresies
3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).</em><br><br><br><br>
"In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the
apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is
most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has
been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed in truth." <em>
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,3:3 (inter A.D. 180/199).</em><br><br><br></div><p style="margin-left: 40px;">
"For us...having grown old in the Scriptures, preserving the Apostolic and
ecclesiastical correctness of doctrine, living a life according to the Gospel,
is led by the Lord to discover the proofs from the Law and the prophets which
he seeks." <em>Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 7,104 (c. A.D. 205).</em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><br><em></em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><em></em>"The Church's preaching has been handed down through an orderly succession from
the Apostles and remains in the Church until the present. That alone is to be
believed as the truth which in no way departs from ecclesiastical and apostolic
tradition." <em>Origen, First Principles 1,2 (c. A.D. 230).</em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><em><span style="font-style: italic;"><br></span></em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">
"But after him (the devil) and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies,
who indeed refer to the Scriptures, but do not hold such opinions as the saints
have handed down, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because
they do not rightly know them nor their power." <em>Athanasius, Festal Letter 2 (c.
A.D. 350).</em><em><span style="font-style: italic;"></span> </em>
</p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><br><br>
"Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or enjoined which are
preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others
we have delivered to us in a mystery by the Apostles by the tradition of the
Apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force." <em>Basil,
Holy Spirit 27 (c. A.D. 370).</em><br><br><br></div><p style="margin-left: 40px;">
"While the unwritten traditions are so many and their bearing on 'the mystery
of godliness' is so important, can they refuse us a single word which has come
down to us from the Fathers;--which we found, derived from untutored custom,
abiding in unperverted churches;--a word for which contributes in no small
degree to the completeness of the force of the mystery." <em>Basil, Holy Spirit 67
(c. A.D. 370). </em>
</p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><br>
</p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"In answer to the objection that the doxology in the form 'with the Spirit' has
no written authority, we maintain that if there is not other instance of that
which is unwritten, then this must not be received. But if the great number of
our mysteries are admitted into our constitution without written authority,
then, in company with many others, let us receive this one. For I hold it
apostolic to abide by the unwritten traditions. 'I praise you,' it is said,
'that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as I have delivered
them to you;' and 'Hold fast the traditions which ye have been taught whether
by word, or our Epistle.' One of these traditions is the practice which is now
before us, which they who ordained from the beginning, rooted firmly in the
churches, delivering it to their successors, and its use through long custom
advances pace by pace with time." <em>Basil, Holy Spirit 71 (c. A.D. 370).</em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><em><br> </em>
</p><div style="margin-left: 40px;">"To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken
from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following
the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the
universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to
you." <em>Augustine, C. Cresconius I:33 (c. A.D. 390).</em></div><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><em><br> </em>
</p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">
"'So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold to the traditions which you were
taught, whether by word, or by our epistle of ours'. Hence it is manifest, that
they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things unwritten, and in
like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us
think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition seek
no farther." <em>John Chrysostom, Homilies on Second Thessalonians (c. A.D. 392).</em><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge
of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the
scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any
uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her
authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love,
established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very
seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in
charge to feed his sheep, down to the present episcopate� For my part, I should
not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So
when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me
not to believe in Manicheus, how can I but consent?" <em>Augustine, Epistle of
Manichaeus 5,6 (A.D. 397).</em><br><em></em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><em><span style="font-style: italic;"><br></span></em></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge
of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the
scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any
uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her
authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love,
established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very
seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in
charge to feed his sheep, down to the present episcopate. For my part, I should
not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So
when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me
not to believe in Manicheus, how can I but consent?" <em>Augustine, Epistle of
Manichaeus 5,6 (A.D. 397).</em><em><span style="font-style: italic;"></span></em></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><br></div><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"When anyone asks one of these heretics who presents arguments: Where are the
proofs of your teaching that I should leave behind the world-wide and ancient
faith of the Catholic Church? He will jump in before you have finished with the
question: 'It is written.' He follows up immediately with thousands of texts and
examples...' <em>Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality
of the Catholic Faith 1,26 (A.D. 434).</em><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"Here perhaps, someone may ask: Since the canon of the Scripture is complete
and more than sufficient in itself, why is it necessary to add to it the
authority of ecclesiastical interpretation? As a matter of fact, [we must
answer] Holy Scripture, because of its depth, is not universally accepted in
one and the same sense. The same text is interpreted different by different
people, so that one may almost gain the impression that it can yield as many
different meanings as there are men. Novatian, for example, expounds a passage
in one way; Sabellius, in another; Donatus, in another. Arius, and Eunomius,
and Macedonius read it differently; so do Photinus, Apollinaris, and
Priscillian; in another way, Jovian, Pelagius, and Caelestius; finally still
another way, Nestorius. Thus, because of the great distortions caused by
various errors, it is, indeed, necessary that the trend of the interpretation
of the prophetic and apostolic writings be directed in accordance with the rule
of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning." <em>Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for
the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith 2 (A.D. 434).</em><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;"><br></p><p style="margin-left: 40px;">"This teaching has been handed down to us not only by the Apostles and prophets
but also by those who have interpreted their writings, Ignatius, Eustathius,
Athanasius, Basil, Gregory...and other lights of the world and before them, by
the holy Fathers gathered at Nicea whose confession of faith we have kept
intact, as the inheritance from a Father, while those who dare to violate their
teachings, we call corrupt and enemies of truth." <em>Theodoret of Cyrus, Epistles
89 (c. A.D. 436).</em><br></p><p><br></p><p>(see <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/">The Fathers of the Church</a> at NewAdvent.org for a wider selection and more background information; and/or use Google to find some other free on-line collections of the Church Fathers' extant writings)
</p><p><br></p><br><span class="q">On 6/13/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Ed Hurst</b> <</span><a href="mailto:ehurst@asisaid.com">ehurst@asisaid.com</a><span class="q">> wrote:</span><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">That is at least partially accurate. Emergents don't reject everything<br>
which preceded them, obviously. Emergent is more about the process than<br>
the results; what they reject is clinging to the methods of doing church<br>
which characterize previous generations. There is a distinct danger, as<br>
there must be every time we attempt to break from tradition without<br>
aiming to trash truth</blockquote></span><br><br><br>How can a discussion which is about "methods of doing church" fail to incorporate the Church Fathers? Sorry, I couldn't resist ... ;-)<br><br>In Christ,<br>
<br>Michael Bradley, Jr.<br><br>--<br>My home on the Net ::<br> <a href="http://www.michaelsbradleyjr.net/">http://www.michaelsbradleyjr.net/</a><br><br>IC XC NIKA<br>