[CS-FSLUG] Luke 22:36 - 22:38

[James Thompson]

Some facts:

+ Luke and Ephesians by conservative estimations were authored around
the same time, 60-63 AD, although Ephesians is considered on of the
Prison Epistles which seperates Paul from Luke enough to disparage any
mixing of metaphors between the two.

+ The actual events recorded by Luke probably came from other sources
who witnessed them and thus would probably not be subject to any
Pauline metaphors.

+ The "Bible" was not possible as a single volume until into the 2nd
century most likely due to the invention of the Codex form sometime
near the end of the 1st or beginning of the 2nd century.

+ The Canon of the Old Testament wasn't fixed until the Council of
Jamnia, 90 AD, some 30 years after Ephesians and Luke would have been
written.

+ The canon of the New Testament wasn't fixed until well into the 2nd century.

+ It was only normal for the wealthy, synagogues and places of
learning to have copies of the scripture and very few ever had what
could be considered a complete collection. So most folks memorized
scripture since they couldn't have their own copies.

Because of these and other factors it is unlikely that the metaphor
interpretation is accurate. Especially if you read verse 38 as a
rebuke it is almost impossible to hold to that interpreation. Also,
why would Jesus use metaphorical language in the midst of instructions
he would probably want to be clearly understood. And would those who
read the Gospels without the enlightenment of Ephesians have been able
to arrive at that interpretation, unlikely. For these reasons a
literal reading seems most appropriate.

The former poster may be on to something in regards to defense v.
revolution although I would want to study the greek as well as the
historical setting some more. I find it highly unlikely that the
metaphor interpretation is even a remote possiblity though, except
with those pushing a extra-Biblical pacifist perspective.


-- 
James W. Thompson, II (New Orleans, LA)

RESPONDING TO:
On 7/13/05, Aaron Lehmann <lehmanap at lehmanap.dyndns.org> wrote:
> I'd like some reasons for these beliefs.  I've no particular stance one
> way or another as yet, but it seems like a bit of a jump to assume that
> the word as a sword metaphor was already in use.  After all, Jesus spoke
> cryptically to the masses, but he explained things to the twelve.  Why
> would he be catty and use an unexplained metaphor, when it would be just
> as easy to be straightforward about things?  It seems more likely that
> he wanted to be sure they had enough swords to defend themselves, if
> they were attacked, but not enough to start a revolution.
> 
> Also, I was under the impression that Biblical cannon was not very well
> established yet.  Different scripts were holy in different places, so
> you couldn't just say "make sure you have a Bible," as what was holy
> writ varied, and wasn't collected and available to everyone as what was
> holy writ varied, and wasn't collected and available to everyone.  On
> the other hand, I doubt it was much better collected by the time Paul
> talked about the Sword of the Spirit.
> 
> I guess my basic problem with this view of things is that it assumes
> that Jesus must have been using the word -> sword metaphor, just because
> Paul used it later.  But Jesus, oddly enough, tends to extend on
> metaphors used before him, not after him.  If he were being
> metaphorical, it seem more likely that he would tell them to sell their
> cloak to buy bread (i.e. the bread of life).
> 
> Aaron Lehmann
> 
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:17:08AM -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:
> > The respons I rec'd is:
> >
> > The passage with TWO swords is in 22:38. Jesus' response is not an
> > approval--"It is enough" has the meaning of "Enough of this." The sword
> > referred to in 22:36 is not a physical sword--see Eph 6:17.
> >
> > --
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